Discussion:
Ubuntu Feisty Herd 5
John Jason Jordan
2007-03-05 05:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Is out. I downloaded and ran the amd64 Desktop live CD. If any of you
have the Broadcom 4306, Feisty autodetected it and set it up. Didn't
have to lift a finger.
Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas
2007-03-05 13:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Jason Jordan
Is out. I downloaded and ran the amd64 Desktop live CD. If any of you
have the Broadcom 4306, Feisty autodetected it and set it up. Didn't
have to lift a finger.
I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu from SuSE. Is there a URL that
describes what I need to do to get Ubuntu to run properly? The 64-bit
architecture complicates things. I read you no longer need to chroot in
Ubuntu in order to run 32-bit applications.

CF
--
Running 64-bit Linux on AMD64
John Jason Jordan
2007-03-05 16:48:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:31:06 -0500
Post by Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas
Post by John Jason Jordan
Is out. I downloaded and ran the amd64 Desktop live CD. If any of you
have the Broadcom 4306, Feisty autodetected it and set it up. Didn't
have to lift a finger.
I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu from SuSE. Is there a URL that
describes what I need to do to get Ubuntu to run properly? The 64-bit
architecture complicates things. I read you no longer need to chroot in
Ubuntu in order to run 32-bit applications.
I love Ubuntu, but I hear constant complaining on the Ubuntu amd64
forums about not supporting 32-bit apps. A frequent comment is that
Suse is better at this. I'd research this carefully if I were you. Or
-- better idea -- install Ubuntu amd64 to a spare partition to take it
for a spin first.
JT Moree
2007-03-06 01:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Jason Jordan
I love Ubuntu, but I hear constant complaining on the Ubuntu amd64
forums about not supporting 32-bit apps. A frequent comment is that
Suse is better at this. I'd research this carefully if I were you. Or
-- better idea -- install Ubuntu amd64 to a spare partition to take it
for a spin first.
There's constant complaining everywhere that 32bit apps aren't supported
under 64bit distros.

I'm running dapper 64bit. for acrobat and opera I installed the 32bit
debs with --force and they work fine. For mplayer i used 32bit binaries
which are statically compiled so they just work. (i think) For flash
and other 32bit plugins I installed flock so I could run it at the same
time as 64bit gecko browsers without file locking problems.


- --
JT Morée
PC Xperience, Inc.
D. Hugh Redelmeier
2007-03-06 04:38:31 UTC
Permalink
| From: JT Moree <***@pcxperience.com>

| There's constant complaining everywhere that 32bit apps aren't supported
| under 64bit distros.

Fedora has supported 32-bit applications on their 64-bit distro all
along. That's what I've used since I got the machine (2.5 years ago).
I also run it on my 64-bit desktops.

The major difficulty in getting 32- and 64-bit to live together is
that you need to have two version of libraries that are going to be
used in both worlds. Fedora puts 64-bit libraries in /lib64,
/usr/lib64 etc. and 32-bit libraries remain in /lib, /usr/lib etc.
This works well.

The cost is that you need a lot of libraries in each form. And there
are some small infelicities. For example, a 32-bit and 64-bit package
may share a config file and rpm is concerned by the differing
timestamps (the actual content is identical).

My understanding was that the Debian way of running 32-bit stuff on a
64-bit machine is to create a chroot 32-bit world. It sounds awkward.
Perhaps things have been improved.

Do I exploit Fedora's capability to run 32-bit stuff? Only in a few
cases, but some have been important.

- for the longest time, OpenOffice only came in 32-bit form. No
longer true.

- I have a 32-bit firefox in which to run the Flash plugin. But
almost all the time I use the 64-bit Firefox, without Flash.
(There are a lot of packages that depend on the 64-bit firefox
so I don't think that I could simply replace it with the 32-bit
one.)

- Mplayer needs to be 32-bit to run the 32-bit codecs. I don't
actually know whether I'm using them. Mplayer and codecs are
a bit of a mystery to me.

(I run Ubuntu 6.06 on my 32-bit subnotebook. I'll go look at Feisty.
What's with the name? Should it not be Feisty
Something-that-begins-with-F?)
John Jason Jordan
2007-03-06 05:26:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:38:31 -0500 (EST)
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
My understanding was that the Debian way of running 32-bit stuff on a
64-bit machine is to create a chroot 32-bit world. It sounds awkward.
Perhaps things have been improved.
No, Debian does much the same as Fedora and other 64-bit distros, just
not as well. That is, a Debian distro maintains two sets of libraries.
The problem is that sometimes you can't just grab the regular 32-bit
library and put it into the 32-bit library folder. There are occasional
problems with compatibility. Also, from what you say, Debian does the
folders backwards -- 64-bit libs are in /lib and 32-bit libs are
in /lib32. In theory this shouldn't make any difference. In practice,
it sometimes does.
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
Do I exploit Fedora's capability to run 32-bit stuff? Only in a few
cases, but some have been important.
Ditto for me in Ubuntu Edgy amd64. I have 32-bit Adobe Reader, 32-bit
RealPlayer, 32-bit Opera, and 32-bit Java. The first three I installed
with --force-architecture. The latter was in the Ubuntu amd64
repositories.
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
- for the longest time, OpenOffice only came in 32-bit form. No
longer true.
I hear conflicting stories about this. The most credible story that I
have heard for Ubuntu Edgy amd64 is that OOo is 32-bit and Ubuntu wrote
ia32-lib-openoffice to make it work.
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
- I have a 32-bit firefox in which to run the Flash plugin. But
almost all the time I use the 64-bit Firefox, without Flash.
(There are a lot of packages that depend on the 64-bit firefox
so I don't think that I could simply replace it with the 32-bit
one.)
On my Ubuntu amd64 Edgy R3240 I have had flash installed in 64-bit
Firefox, along with all the rest of the plugins that the medial kiddies
want. After a bit I took out the flash plugin because it was too
annoying. However, since Flash 32 was installed, it continued to run in
Opera. That's perfect -- Firefox is what I normally use and I don't
want Flash. If I do want to go to Youtube or someplace like that, then
I launch Opera.
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
- Mplayer needs to be 32-bit to run the 32-bit codecs. I don't
actually know whether I'm using them. Mplayer and codecs are
a bit of a mystery to me.
I have never gotten mplayer to work worth a damn on 64-bit
Ubuntu-anything. But I don't really care because I have no use for it.
I use Totem to view movies (works perfectly) and RealPlayer for audio
files, including web streams. I don't care to bother viewing video over
the web.
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
(I run Ubuntu 6.06 on my 32-bit subnotebook. I'll go look at Feisty.
What's with the name? Should it not be Feisty
Something-that-begins-with-F?)
You can get it here:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/feisty/herd-5/

Download the torrent. I have completed the full download and am seeding
it back, so I know you will get at least one peer.
D. Hugh Redelmeier
2007-03-06 06:08:35 UTC
Permalink
| From: John Jason Jordan <***@comcast.net>

| No, Debian does much the same as Fedora and other 64-bit distros, just
| not as well. That is, a Debian distro maintains two sets of libraries.
| The problem is that sometimes you can't just grab the regular 32-bit
| library and put it into the 32-bit library folder. There are occasional
| problems with compatibility. Also, from what you say, Debian does the
| folders backwards -- 64-bit libs are in /lib and 32-bit libs are
| in /lib32. In theory this shouldn't make any difference. In practice,
| it sometimes does.

Ah. I see the problem. Normal 32-bit apps and libraries (if they
"know" the library directories) won't work.

The Debian way is more pure (native arch owns "lib" directories,
others archs must get out of the way), but less practical (x86-64 was
meant to coexist with i386, so it is easy for it to start off with
lib64).

An argument could be made that each library directory should have a
name that includes the arch so that all arches could coexist (say, on
an NFS-mounted filesystem meant to support a bunch of arches).

| I have 32-bit Adobe Reader, 32-bit
| RealPlayer, 32-bit Opera, and 32-bit Java. The first three I installed
| with --force-architecture. The latter was in the Ubuntu amd64
| repositories.

I detest the use of force :-) Seriously: I hate second-guessing a
distro.

I forgot that I sometimes use Adobe Acrobat Reader, another 32-bit
only application.

| > - for the longest time, OpenOffice only came in 32-bit form. No
| > longer true.
|
| I hear conflicting stories about this. The most credible story that I
| have heard for Ubuntu Edgy amd64 is that OOo is 32-bit and Ubuntu wrote
| ia32-lib-openoffice to make it work.

I'm just parroting what I heard. So I could be wrong.

Some parts of OO require Java now, I think. Red Hat has worked very
hard to get gcj up to the level where it can be used in place of Sun's
Java for this task. Java did not come in x86-64 until recently (and
there is no x86-64 Java plug-in for browsers). Again, this is not
firsthand knowledge.

| On my Ubuntu amd64 Edgy R3240 I have had flash installed in 64-bit
| Firefox, along with all the rest of the plugins that the medial kiddies
| want.

I wonder how that worked. But not enough to figure it out :-)

| After a bit I took out the flash plugin because it was too
| annoying. However, since Flash 32 was installed, it continued to run in
| Opera. That's perfect -- Firefox is what I normally use and I don't
| want Flash. If I do want to go to Youtube or someplace like that, then
| I launch Opera.

That sounds more convenient than my setup, but for a silly little
reason. Whenever you have a firefox running, any attempt to run
another version, or mozilla, will just get you another window running
under the original firefox. So I have to leave my x86-64 firefox to
run my i386 version. Grrr.

The most annoying version of this problem is that I cannot even fire
up firefox on a remote machine with the display on my local X server
if I already have it running locally. I may want to access resources
on the far machine (files, bookmarks, rights to university library resources)
that just cannot be reached by the local firefox. Grrr.

| I have never gotten mplayer to work worth a damn on 64-bit
| Ubuntu-anything. But I don't really care because I have no use for it.
| I use Totem to view movies (works perfectly) and RealPlayer for audio
| files, including web streams. I don't care to bother viewing video over
| the web.

I use mplayer on my Fedora x86-64 box to watch stuff from my Myth TV
box (another machine). I've also used mplayer for this on 32-bit Ubuntu.

| > I'll go look at Feisty.
| > What's with the name? Should it not be Feisty
| > Something-that-begins-with-F?
|
| You can get it here:
|
| http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/feisty/herd-5/

Ahh. Now I see that this is a test release. The real thing, to be
released next month, will be called Feisty Fawn.

I will probably wait until the official release.

| Download the torrent. I have completed the full download and am seeding
| it back, so I know you will get at least one peer.

My ISP is well known for "traffic shaping" torrent down to dialup
speeds :-(. They don't give a reason (or even admit doing it) but I
think that they would say that all torrent users are pirates. Not me.
Bernie Hoefer
2007-03-07 15:45:23 UTC
Permalink
D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
===
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
Whenever you have a firefox running, any attempt to run
another version, or mozilla, will just get you another window running
under the original firefox. So I have to leave my x86-64 firefox to
run my i386 version. Grrr.
The most annoying version of this problem is that I cannot even fire
up firefox on a remote machine with the display on my local X server
if I already have it running locally. I may want to access resources
on the far machine (files, bookmarks, rights to university library resources)
that just cannot be reached by the local firefox. Grrr.
===
I've had the exact same problem. I don't know how to help you with
Firefox, but I learned a trick that will allow you to run different
Mozilla/SeaMonkey sessions. For some reason, Mozilla's/SeaMonkey's
Composer (the HTML editor) is different, but still related to the
Mozilla/SeaMonkey Navigator and Mail & News apps.
So, I'll start Mozilla/SeaMonkey on my local machine as I normally
do, then SSH to the remote machine (while exporting the display) and
type "mozilla -edit" or "seamonkey -edit".
Once the remote Composer is running, I can open its Navigator window.

- --
Bernie Hoefer
PGP e-mail is welcome! Get my 1024 bit signature key from:
<http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x446A6F93>.
"The more I know, the more I realize how much I do not understand."
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